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S1E10: Why everybody hates the financial sector

Rebecca Park, Managing Director of Corporate Affairs at UK Finance talks to Daisy about the real role of communications professionals, why working in an industry body is more interesting that you might think and, of course, why everybody hates bankers. She also dispenses some excellent advice, including: 

  • One of the most valuable roles we can play is to be the person in the room who identifies and manages risk. 

  • Building reputation isn't about talking to your customers about trust. Instead, focus on delivering what they expect from you - trust and reputation will follow. 

  • Don't destroy your credibility by defending the indefensible. 

  • Sometimes the right answer isn't to try and grab the headlines: communications takes many forms and the answer might be much more low key than that. And finally,

  • Remember that not every decision needs to be taken right now. It might be even better to wait and observe. 

For all this as well as insights into how the financial crisis helped banks to navigate Covid, and sensible thoughts on looking after your team during an extended incident, listen here:

Or read the transcript in full here:

S1E10 - Why everybody hates the financial sector

[00:00:00] Rebecca Park: You don't trust the company or the organization that tells you to trust them. You trust the organizations that are out there doing good work and are frankly just doing their job and doing what they're supposed to do.

Daisy Powell-Chandler: Welcome to Why Everybody Hates You, an audio support group for reputation professionals. If you have any responsibility for how people talk, think, and feel about your organization, then you are in the right place. My name is Daisy Powell-Chandler and today I'm speaking to Rebecca Park, who's managing director for corporate affairs at UK Finance, the collective voice for the banking and finance industry.

Hi Becca - thank you so much for joining me. Why does everybody hate to you?

Rebecca Park: Thank you very much, Daisy. Well, why does everyone hate the banking sector? That is a question you could certainly write an essay on. I think you [00:01:00] could equally give a very short answer, which is probably for many people summarized as the financial crisis. And that is the reason everyone hates us.

But I think the answer is invariably more complicated than that. I know people would say, “you would say that wouldn't you”, but actually people hate us for different reasons and also people hate different parts of our industry. And I appreciate that I should probably not concede any of that, but I think we have to accept people have strong views about banks and bankers and that's okay. We need to understand why and think about how we address it.

Firstly, I think we have to understand that banking/banks/bankers isn't something anybody wakes up thinking about. And actually, if you do wake up thinking about it, we've done something wrong and there's a problem. And for me, that is exactly what the financial crisis was about as a reputational challenge for the industry. We went from being this really significant part of the UK economy - a huge employer, a huge source of wealth, investment [00:02:00] and innovation - to leading the six o'clock and ten o'clock news. Every breaking bulletin was about a financial failure that, first of all, people didn't understand but they knew was bad. Secondly, the consequences of what happened hit home for them, whether it was queuing outside a branch because you were worried about your deposits, or being a small business and realizing you couldn't access the financing you needed. Suddenly, we were something that people thought about and we were not being thought about in a very productive or positive manner. For me, that fundamentally changed the British public's relationship with the industry. That would be a damaging place to be reputationally for anybody.

But the second part of that was this perception that we were then bailed out by the taxpayer and that actually people who had lost life savings, in some cases, were suddenly seeing their taxes being used to bail out this image of the wall street banker - the person, the fat cat, sat there with their cigar, [00:03:00] their pinstripe suit and their huge bonuses. That's a really toxic image that we as an industry had to address.

So for me, that is how we came to the real reputational crisis the industry saw after the financial crisis. It’s right that the industry accepts we did get things wrong, and there was a need for the industry to stop and reset and think about how we do things differently. For example, how we serve our customers differently, but also how the management of our institutions changed and then to think about how we reset the agenda when it comes to trust and reputation and what people think about the industry.

Daisy Powell-Chandler: Now you face the important, but possibly quite challenging situation where that is literally your job: you are in charge of external communications for the industry body that represents these companies.

How has that understanding of the crisis affected the way you've done that job over the last few years and the way in which you [00:04:00] understand building trust and reputation in the banking sector again?

Rebecca Park: I joined what was the British Banks Association, and is now UK Finance, seven years ago. I was really coming at this straight after the breaking of the libel scandal and a real dip post the immediate crisis in reputation. To be honest, it colours every single part of the job, whether that is engagement with MPs or stakeholders, policy makers or regulators, the media or even direct communication with consumers, because the whole regulatory agenda we were facing as an industry was as a result of the crisis. We were in that period of post-crisis reform: What needs to be fixed? How do we need to get the industry to change?

But also, once I started talking with members, banks and senior leaders across the industry, it is also absolutely what they are worrying about and what they're thinking about. And I was very conscious that, [00:05:00] right up to the top of the shop in every bank and institution, this conversation about reputation was happening.

How do we understand what people think about us and then how do we fix it, so that we are doing the right thing and people understand that we're doing the right thing? And for me, those two steps are absolutely crucial. There's no point just talking about reputation and trust, and telling people, “oh, look, we've changed, we're doing things differently”. You actually have to be doing things differently. You have to be thinking differently and you have to be ensuring that the reforms you've implemented are genuine and go right from the top of the organization through to the bottom of the organization.

I think for the banking sector, it is absolutely critical that the change in leadership across the whole sector was understood and that people saw the way in which banks were being run now was different to 2008 and that actually, there was real concern and real focus about how customers were treated. I always remember early on in my time listening to a Today Program interview…with the then new CEO of RBS, Ross McEwan, talking about the way in which he wanted to position the bank with a new focus on customers and really talking about everything from the ground up, what this meant for a branch offering, to current accounts, to the broader services and the culture of the bank.

I just remember thinking, “wow, that is a totally different way for the industry to communicate than the traditional annual reports and investor reports you'd have had a couple of years previously where the Today Program interview would have been entirely appealing to the investor audience and the shareholder audience”. While that's important that this institution had chosen that data focus on talking to its customers and potential customers, I think it was a real kind of shift in how the industry wants to have a conversation.

Daisy Powell-Chandler: And do you think the industry is seeing that approach payoff?

Rebecca Park: Yes and no. To be honest, no one is ever going to think we are the best thing since sliced bread. We are [00:07:00] not a favoured industry. Arguably that is understandable, and we probably shouldn't seek to change that. But if you look at the metrics for the industry, they are slowly ticking up over the last 10 years. Metrics are improved for the sector as a whole. But also, I think you have to think about what does that mean for individual firms? I mean, most people like their own bank, most people like their own finance provider. The figures you generally see are around kind of 80-85% in terms of favourability - that's because the services they offer are generally effective, they function as you'd expect, nothing goes wrong, and therefore you don't need to think about it.

If you're asking someone about banking or bankers, per se, you're probably starting to ask them about what they think about the industry as a whole. Then they start thinking about capital markets and wholesale markets and these things that…why would you understand them? Why would you think about them or care about them unless you're hearing them in the negative context? So I think there is always that challenge between steady improvements, but then the moments [00:08:00] when the stories do arise, they're starting to become a problem.

So, I do think things have improved. I do think that the industry is not at the same place it was in 2008-2010, but it's not a meteoric rise. It's going to take decades for that trust to change. Because at the end of the day, it is still in people's memories what happened in the financial crisis and the way that the government responded, and the cost people see to the economy because of that.

One of the things I'm always struck by when you look at research in this space is when you ask people who is responsible for the economic challenges after the financial crisis, was it government or was the industry, we are up there alongside government: we are just as responsible as policymakers in people's views. I think that is really telling about how influential people feel the sector is in this country, and whether that level of investment or balance is imbalanced and needs to be addressed or whether it's acceptable and can be managed. I think because of those risks and because of those challenges, that trust is always going [00:09:00] to be a challenge for our industry.

Daisy Powell-Chandler: It sounds as if actually a large part of your job as a communicator for the sector is about keeping them off the front pages. Is that what you expected when you went into it?

Rebecca Park: Yes and no. I learned a lot about communications and media in this role in terms of when to go proactive and when to manage things reactively. It was a real learning curve that actually sometimes the right course of action is not seeking that media moment or that coverage. I think that in PR we are all guilty a bit sometimes of measuring our success by our cuttings or by our coverage. Actually, even if ignore sentiment, you need to start thinking about whether it was the right time to be out for a story or right time to be looking at this.

I always remember instructing one agency to support us on a matter regarding financial crime and fraud. We were launching a new customer code about how to support customers when they were a victim of scams, and they came to the classic PR [00:10:00] plan and they said we can get you on the BBC, we can get broadcast coverage…I said, “no, I just want a really clean factual launch so that the information is available for customers as and when they need it. This isn't a media moment.” And they looked at me like I was mad – they said, “but this is a voluntary case. The industry is launching to protect customers”. And I was like, “yes, absolutely on its face it is that but it is also something that many people feel should have been available anyway, should be available through law or regulation and, actually, we just need to be doing this quietly because it is what people expect of us. We don't need to be doing this and seeking a huge amount of media attention”.

For me, that was learning that balance in the industry about when it's right to just get on and do it and when it's right to really talk about it and push it. It is a really interesting challenge for the sector, I think.

Daisy Powell-Chandler: I think a lot of sane people outside of comms and outside of reputation would think it sounds like a really odd move to [00:11:00] join the banking profession just after libel, just after the financial crisis. What drove you to that desperate position?

Rebecca Park: Firstly, I always like a challenge - that will probably be a personal reflection of me. But at the end of the day, and this is going to sound trite but I'm going to say it: the industry employs hundreds of thousands of people across the UK, it is responsible for the generation of investment and wealth across every industry that functions in our economy. That is a tremendous responsibility and a huge opportunity to do good things. And actually, if you are wanting to work in an industry where you can make a difference, where you can see how an industry coming together can improve things, then I don't think there is a better challenge or a better opportunity than the finance sector. And it's the sheer breadth of topics where you can work to improve things.

This week, we've seen the research published around financial abuse and the growing risks and problems of financial abuse, [00:12:00] particularly during lockdown. As an industry body, we've been able to work with our members over the last few months to help think about how the industry can manage those risks and those challenges. We have a proactive agenda that's looking at sustainability. We have a huge amount of work and activities and industry looking at economic crime, including our own police unit, which is not something I expected when I took the job. Those areas to actually do good and to make a difference, from a personal perspective, huge and vast and you get to do great work.

So, it might not always be popular. It might not always be something that you wake up and think, “yeah, I want to grow up and I want to defend the banking sector”, but actually, there's a huge chance to do some really great work.

Daisy Powell-Chandler: It would be hard to have this discussion without mentioning coronavirus at all, I suspect. It strikes me that there's a lot of parallels between the position you found yourselves in at the start of this year compared to the financial crisis. In general, the industry seems [00:13:00] to have played it rather better. This time, there were a few wobbles over the various different government schemes, but it seems that banking has had a better crisis this time. Is that because it wasn't so clearly your fault or was it because you learned better lessons from the first crisis that you could apply this time round?

Rebecca Park: The industry response to COVID, I very much think has been coloured by the institutional memory that still exists from the last crisis. Often in an industry when these major single crisis moments come, they are intergenerational and there are very few people still in the building who remember what happened last time. Whereas I think for the banking and finance sector, 2008 was absolutely front and centre of people's minds and very much something that they will remember from their own experiences and therefore how to address it this time round was a learning exercise. We knew what went wrong last time, we knew what didn't work last time, we saw the consequences of being [00:14:00] slow to act, and we saw the consequences of not thinking necessarily immediately about the reputational challenges and the broader impacts of a kind of a miss-step at this point in time. So I do think that absolutely shaped the way that the industry responded in the spring of this year.

In doing so, from a communications perspective, if I can start on the pure communication side of things, we all had our playbooks. We all had our kind of plans in place for what happens if we can't provide services as expected to customers on mass. We all got them out on day one, we all started using them and by day seven, they were totally tested to oblivion. You know, no one had really anticipated that we'd all be doing this for an extended period of time and so it required us to be creative - it required us to be on the front foot.

But I think for the banking sector, actually one of the things we learned through the crisis was the benefit of collaboration and the benefit of working together for a shared goal. And actually sometimes the best way to help [00:15:00] customers is shared communication with joint messaging and a joint approach, and a single suite of very simple solutions and messages that we can get out quickly that provide people with clarity. As an industry, that's something we saw that we needed after the crisis. And we've seen it in various operational crisis since then. So there was a real desire across the industry to get that shared messaging out very quickly and very early on and I think that was really important in ensuring that customers understood how they could access banking services, how they could access their money online, how they could get cash if they couldn't get into a branch because they were shielding or they were in a lockdown scenario.

I think for the industry, that speed and that willingness to collaborate is really important. I think from a trade body perspective, that's one of the things where a trade body can really do something that's important and really do something that's different. We can provide the forum to have those conversations, to think about how we collaborate, how we work in partnership with government to get some of those solutions [00:16:00] out. But I think more generally across the industry, at a senior level, there was also an acknowledgment that we needed to act now. Even though this was a health crisis, it was clear that it was going to become an economic crisis and actually we needed to work at pace to get finance out the door to those that needed it most. For me, the CBIL Scheme and the bounce back loan scheme are the examples of the industry and government working together at pace to find solutions.

There were many conversations where we were referring back to the conversations had in the financial crisis about the need for business support and anticipating that this was going to be something we had to prioritize. Now, the launch of CBILS wasn't seamless, it wasn't without its challenges. We needed to adapt and alter the policy at pace. That was both from a government perspective and an industry perspective. There were things that we didn't get right first time out and we had to reiterate it and then bring forward the bounce back loans to really address the full scale. But I think that was [00:17:00] a result of the sheer pace at which everybody was working. It was more important about getting something out there quickly and getting something to market that people could access than making it perfect. Something I think we really have learnt in this industry is that sometimes you can't get the perfect solution out there, but you can get something out there very quickly that will help a lot of people – and that's possibly more important.

I think particularly in the consumer side, we saw that with the forbearance support that was provided by the industry. So back in March, you saw the industry produce payment holidays on mortgages, automatic payment holidays on mortgages, on overdrafts and credit cards, but also moratorium on evictions. I think there was an acknowledgement from the industry that we were in unprecedented waters and we needed to ensure people could access that support without putting pressure on telephone systems, call centres, and that was really key in making sure people weren't left without a safety net. There was a really important role for the private sector to work alongside the huge, [00:18:00] heavy lift being done by government with introduction of furlough so that we were providing a kind of coordinated package.

But I absolutely do think because we had that muscle memory in the industry, it played a big part in the speed at which the industry was willing to come together.

Daisy Powell-Chandler: What do you think the lessons are that they'll learn from this crisis?

Rebecca Park: I'm not sure we are far enough through this one yet to reflect on the full lessons, but I think it's really shown the strength and importance of swift communication and coordinated communication, and actually how social media and online platforms changes the nature of communication that you need to get out there and the different information that you need to get out there very quickly.

We obviously didn't have that 10 years ago. It definitely coloured the way that we reacted this time round and it made the need for very simple, very clear, very measured advice and guidance absolutely critical [00:19:00]. That's something we've often talked about as an industry when we've been coordinating crisis response and instant response in resilience events. But you had this perfect example of how important that was and actually the need to coordinate all of that work with consumer groups and with business groups - and actually there's a large number of stakeholders now, you really do need to coordinate very effectively if you're going to get a single clear message for support and guidance out.

Because I think this time, what we saw was people felt overwhelmed about the amount of information they were receiving. We were talking to a lot of businesses who were saying, “look, I've got to learn about furlough and I've got to learn about your bounce back loan scheme. And I'm also trying to figure out how I can make my workplace secure and what I can do and what I can't do. I don't have the capacity or time to receive that much information”. So actually the importance of funnelling that information and making it really clear and consistent across as many different avenues as possible was a real learning for us and something we worked very closely with government, but [00:20:00] also business groups and consumer groups.

Daisy Powell-Chandler: Those sound like really valuable lessons for communicators anyway. To keep your communication simple and targeted and consistent sounds like the gold standard communications playbook.

Rebecca Park: Indeed, but I think trying to do those while you're working remotely added new challenges and I think something for our sector and communications sector to think about is: we've learned that we can all operate press teams and communications teams remotely, but we also need to think about how you then ensure that work life balance is acknowledged and that you don't get burn out, particularly during an extended instant, which I think a lot of us saw and a lot of us were thinking about how do we manage our teams effectively during this and that people get the time off and the time to think that they need, because sometimes the right answer to crisis isn't immediate decision. But if you're constantly in that mode where you're picking up each matter and each issue in each response, you forget that it's okay to take time and think about whether we [00:21:00] do need to act here. Sometimes just allowing someone to play a little longer might be the approach, but that's often not a skill we celebrate in our industry.

Daisy Powell-Chandler: How have you helped your team to try and navigate that element of the crisis?

Rebecca Park: Well firstly, I think we all learnt a huge amount about tech that we didn't previously know we needed. We really did sort of switch to a much more video conferencing based environment: things that would normally have been calls we did make face to face so that you could have those social cues and judge how people were feeling. But I think from our perspective, it was really critical to increase resource and capacity across the team. We actually co-opted a large number of colleagues into our communication function during the early months and I think what we learned from that, is you don't have to be a communications professional to add real value in an instant - it's about having people who are willing to kind of pick up the phone and help and support.

There is actually plenty that you can get done in a very short space of [00:22:00] time to upskill a new team to really deliver and help. But also the importance of a rota that’s really protecting people's time when they are off and actually being very rigid about actually people being on call or not being on call. And if they're not on call, ensuring that they've got that time away from the office or the mobile or social media to really get a break and switch off.

Daisy Powell-Chandler: There could barely have been a better demonstrator for the importance of industry coordination and the role of the industry association during this particular incident. But I know there's a lot of professionals in our industry who are communicators who wouldn't go and work in industry association if you paid them really quite a lot of money - they'd probably rather chew their own arm off. Why do you think that stigma exists? Why is it people don't want to work in these great places of coordination and collaboration?

Rebecca Park: Partly, I think it's no one quite knows how to quantify a [00:23:00] trade body. Are we in-house? Are we an agency? Are we a sort of an advisory and consultancy service? And so as a communications professional, often, first of all, if I'm going to a trade body, what does that mean? What kind of career decision am I taking?

And I think sometimes there is a sense that trade associations might have been a slightly sleepy place to be. But certainly my experience would suggest that's absolutely not the place. One of the things I've loved about a trade body is it's a mixture of in-house and a mixture of consultancy. And actually if you're doing it in the right way and really getting engaged, you are an in-house communications and PR and public affairs function for your policy colleagues, your business areas and units, but you are also an agency service for your members, working with them on communications campaigns and PR campaigns and reactive and proactive media. You can actually be a really great shared communications function where you're addressing these challenges together and offering advisory services and counsel on key issues that you're seeing through the time. [00:24:00] So for me, from a kind of career and professional perspective, I think that's a great mix and a great opportunity to get. But more crucially, working in a trade organization gives you the opportunity to see the issues right across the agenda and how different firms and different business models react to them.

One of the things I found really interesting over the last couple of years is working with FinTechs and payment start-ups and neo-banks but also at the same time working with global international wholesale banks and seeing the different ways they are addressing the very same policy issue or the very same media challenge and actually whether there are real synergies that you can connect and say, “well, actually, have you thought about speaking to so-and-so - they're also addressing this? I think there's a really interesting perspective you could both share.”

Then finally, as you touch on, there is the opportunity to collaborate. The industry coming together and working together has immense power to do good things and to bring forward really important initiatives. You get the chance to work on some great projects: in my time with UK Finance, I've had the opportunity to [00:25:00] do everything from our take five campaign on fraud awareness (which is a multimillion pound campaign looking at how we educate consumers to protect themselves against fraud, working in partnership with government and home office and law enforcement), but also then working on really great, knotty public affairs and policy issues where you really need to get into the meat of a topic and issue, and then think about how you want to engage effectively in parliament and with government to really try and drive forward the change that you need. So you get great variety.

And then I think the final one is it brings a forum in which you can build really important partnerships. One of the things I think that our industry has really learned over the last few years is the importance and benefit of public private partnerships. And actually there are some problems where there are shared challenges that we absolutely need to address together. And if we come together, we can work really effectively to look at the policy changes that are needed and to look at the communications challenges that are addressed.

I think particularly in the [00:26:00] economic crime space, when it comes to fraud, when it comes to scams, when it comes to that wider money laundering landscape, and the impact of that, the work the industry has been able to do with the home office and the treasury and law enforcement in partnership is something I wouldn’t have got experience in if I hadn't been in a trade body. I wouldn't have been able to get as involved in that activity, to see the different ways that we can address it, to work with public sector colleagues so closely. That's been fascinating and a great opportunity.

Daisy Powell-Chandler: Are there areas where all of the collaboration and the great cooperation that's been going on over the past year (with hand slightly forced by what's been going on with COVID), are there areas where you really hope that collaboration instinct is going to speed up some of the processes you're talking about there, and allow you to supercharge cooperation in other areas?

Rebecca Park: Absolutely. And actually I think it already is having that impact. Working so closely with the treasury and with regulators on the [00:27:00] response to COVID, particularly to help customers and to help businesses, I think it's built a new degree of understanding between the public and the private sector on these issues. Also much more of a sense of ‘we could work together and solve this quite quickly…and actually we might have the data that you need, and we can find a quick way to get that to you that it's compliant’. And maybe just be a bit more pragmatic about how we do some of these things together, but also how the public sector can share more with the industry as appropriate and work together to find solutions. It wouldn't have been possible to build the bounce back loan schemes if there hadn't been that desire and willingness to collaborate, and it wouldn't have been as easy to communicate if we hadn't been willing to work together on shared communications and amplifying government campaigns and vice versa.

So I really hope that those learnings can be taken forward and used to help address some of the challenges that we still need to look at.

Daisy Powell-Chandler: What tips do you have for other communicators who may or may not be working in industry bodies, but are [00:28:00] communicating for sectors and companies that have perhaps less than perfect reputations? What tips can you offer from any of your careers to help them?

Rebecca Park: The first one for me is actually something I learned as a solicitor, and definitely carry forward in corporate affairs and communications, which is: the simplest way to describe your job as a lawyer is you manage risk. You are there to identify risks, whether they are commercial, contractual or legal, and advise your client on how to best mitigate those risks.

For me, that is exactly what a good communications professional needs to do as well. It is about being the person in the room that is looking at the potential risks, deciding how they're going to weigh up and manage those risks, and then what plan you need to put in place to mitigate that. That can be reactive activity, or it could be proactive activity. But for me, that is an absolute critical part of the role and can really make a big difference on reputation.

Then the second one is I almost never talk about reputation trust [00:29:00] in my career. And actually, I think that's a really important reminder. You don't trust the company or the organization that tells you to trust them, that keeps talking about why they're trusted, or talks about their reputation. You trust the organizations that are out there doing good work and are frankly just doing their job and doing what they're supposed to do.

I think for our industry in particular, that was a really important learning post crisis. When you asked people what they wanted the industry to do, they started with “please don't break the law, then provide me services that meet my needs and work and are efficient and are resilient, then protect my money, then protect my data”. And the industry almost accidentally discovered we are hugely trusted when it comes to looking after people's personal data, and that's one of our most important tenants of trust. As an industry, people put very sensitive, personal information with us and we are trusted to hold it carefully and securely.

That probably does more to strengthen the trust in our industry than almost anything else. So actually there is a real need, I think, as a [00:30:00] communications professional, to always ask that question first: “Well, are we doing the right thing, delivering as people expected or did we fall short?” Because if it is the latter, there is very little point in going out there and trying to defend it.

And there really isn't much merit, particularly as a trade body, in ever doing anything that looks close to defending the indefensible. And when UK Finance was created, (three years ago, we had brought the six trade bodies together) that was a permission that our board gave us: our members said we will never want you to go out and defend the indefensible.

And that made the job something that we could do where we could be positive. And we had that permission to turn around and say, “actually, we think the industry hasn't done the right thing here. So we're not going to go don the flak jacket and go out on the airwaves and defend it”. It's right for us to admit that there was something wrong here, and I don't think you can do a good communications job if you're not willing to abide by that. [00:31:00]

Daisy Powell-Chandler: Some important lessons from Rebecca Park of UK Finance. First as a communications professional, one of the most valuable roles we can play is to be the person in the room who identifies and manages risk. This is a vital skill to cultivate. Second, building reputation isn't about talking to your customers about trust. Instead, focus on delivering what they expect from you - trust and reputation will follow. And thirdly, don't destroy your credibility by defending the indefensible.

Two further points stood out to me from this conversation that I think are useful reminders for us all. Sometimes the right answer isn't to try and grab the headlines: communications takes many forms and the answer might be much more low key than that. And finally, especially hard when we're in the midst of a crisis, remember that not every decision needs to be taken right now. It might be even [00:32:00] better to wait and observe. How do you find space to step away and think? This is a reminder to incorporate some deliberate space in your work.

Daisy Powell-Chandler: That’s everything from us. A big, thank you to my guest, Rebecca Park, from UK Finance. I hope you've enjoyed this episode, which is the last in this series. Now is the time to make sure you've subscribed on your favourite podcasting app. That way you'll be notified when season two is up and running. I'd also be really grateful if you could leave us a review, if you get the chance, as reviews help new listeners to find the show. Or why not drop me a note telling me what you hated about this season and what you want to hear about in season two. You can do both of those things via our website

Thank you for listening to Why Everybody [00:33:00] Hates You, and remember, you are not alone.